Articles
Winning or Playing well?
Date: 10 Jun 2010By Iron Man
“It is NOT ok to lose” – Homer Simpson
I immediately realise the redundancy of asking the following question to football fans on the internet but has anyone ever played Pro Evo? I’m sure you all have and I’m sure you are all well aware of how competitive the game can get. I always find football games rile me up more than the Street Fighters and Call of Dutys of this world. Like ‘real’ football, there are far more nuances in Pro Evo than your average beat ‘em up or shoot ‘em up which mean that winning feels like having an orgasm in a champagne filled Jacuzzi while losing is as painful as a sandpaper condom.
In typically heated battles against a former good friend of mine, following my usual crotch-thrusting victory dances, he would always try and throw the possession and shots on goal figures at me in some kind of attempt to claim something called ‘the moral victory’. The suggestion that somehow, regardless of the result, he was still better than me by virtue of the fact the stats showed that he played better. Such talk ceased after I flipped and bludgeoned him to death with a Playstation 2 control pad before burying his body under the patio…
The question of whether one would rather play better or win reared it’s head a couple of days ago as I questioned Mean Lean’s assertion that he would rather Arsenal finish second playing great football (thus attaining the moral victory) than win the title playing in a far more ugly manner not unlike the Stoke City urban assault team.
A noble sentiment no doubt. As gooners (and football fans in general) we all love to watch free-flowing ‘pure’ football with all kinds of flicks, tricks and demonstrations of real skill and ability from the players. When we pay for tickets, Sky TV and pint upon pint of match day Kronenburg in the pub, we want to know that we are getting value for money in the form of entertainment.
All that said, there is absolutely no way that I would personally ever take entertainment in place of winning.
In the comments, I stressed the importance of winning and why I felt that if you aren’t playing to win, what’s the point of being there at all? Entertainment is important but if that’s you’re primary aim for going to football, wouldn’t you be better served watching a film or going to the theatre?
The Arsenal team I started supporting under George Graham were never renowned for their entertaining style of play. If anything, the ‘fashionable’ and stylish team in North London were supposedly them lot from up the Seven Sisters. But ask me if I would swap GG’s pragmatism and trophies for Tottenham’s swashbuckling approach and finishing every season empty handed and I would still be laughing in your face now. Loudly, very, very loudly!
1-0 to the Arsenal
Staying with the Spuds, most neutrals will tell you that one of the most entertaining football matches in recent years was the still eye-gougingly painful 4-4 draw at the Emirates. I don’t know about the rest of you but I would take dull uneventful 1-0 wins every day rather than ever have to go through that ever again. Saying that, I’d rather drink a cocktail of molten lava and sulphuric acid than go through that again…
When you win, you can bemoan the performance all you want but getting those three points (or progress in cup competition) should always be the most important thing at the end of the day.
Interestingly, Arsenal’s last trophy was procured after showing up at the Millennium stadium with the strict mentality of simply avoiding defeat. How many people were complaining about lack of entertainment and not playing well when Paddy et al were dancing around with the 2005 FA Cup? Not many I’d bet.
Happy Days!
Don’t get me wrong. This is far from an attack on attacking, positive play. If it gets the required result then that’s a bonus. Playing well and winning is what we all want but if it has to be one or the other, I always feel the emphasis should be on the result first.
Away from Arsenal, Relegation specialists West Brom are always quick to point out how they like to play football the so-called right way but I’m pretty sure it’s the fans of the abovementioned Stoke City who have cemented their place in the top flight that are the more satisfied with their team’s progress in recent years.
The great Dutch team of the 70’s never had anything to show for their ‘Total Football’ while their more conservative German neighbours have had no end of success.
In Spain, you have a team like Real Madrid who ludicrously sacked Fabio Capello in 2007 despite winning the club its first league title in four years because he had the nerve to adopt a more conservative approach. As a result, you have a club so hell-bent on playing ‘good’ football, that their often desperate attempts of achieving it have almost made them somewhat of a laughing stock.
So, is playing well really more important than winning? Well, you wouldn’t be happy if you had a Ferrari without an engine, you wouldn’t be happy if you were dating Christina Hendricks and she refused to put out and ultimately, you wouldn’t be happy with a football team that can’t convert amazing football into success.
Discuss.
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The fact of the matter is that, more often than not, you win by playing well.
It's an underappreciated fact that we win much more games now, than in the 1-nil to the Arsenal era. We score more goals and we concede fewer goals.
Since winning is not guaranteed in football, and losing (the odd game) is a certainty, it is far more enjoyable to play well and lose, than to play badly and lose.
Playing well, and playing good football is a means to an end (winning). As Wenger pointed out, a good pass is better than a bad pass, and is more likely to win you the game.
I don't see what the compromise is.
People highlight the teams that play ultra-defensive anti-football tactics and win, forgetting that most teams that play those tactics win fuck all. Forgeting that most teams that win trophies play good football.
I think if we start changing the way we play we will actually drop out of the Top 4.
We don't have the right players at the moment to change to a more physical style, so we wont be able to win like this all the time.
Our problem in the past 5 seasons have been defence, gk... that's it. We conceed silly goals and no one can win the league by dropping points in this manner, this season alone we woulda had like an extra 12+ points if we had a better keeper/defence.
I beleive we can still win things playing well... Barcelona do it and imo as hard it is to admit, in the 2nd half of the season Chelsea played well, you cant win games 8-0, 7-0 if you play boring football can you? when was the last time we won a game by a margin like that? they did it 3 times in the 2nd half of the season.
I'd say lets keep playing the way we play because after all... that's the reason many people support this team, because our matches are usually exciting, fast and at times art.
But playing well is often the path to winning.
If we combine our playing well against the "smaller" teams of last season and being a bit more pragmatic against the Barcas/Chavs/Manures of this world, then we're onto something.
Ole Gunner - i don't agree when you say"most teams that play those tactics win fuck all" mainly because a lot of teams HAVE to play that way to stay in their respective divisions. Jose Mourihno is the classic example of showing that it does work...they one the CL final with hardly any possession.
i'm not sayin that i want to go back to the days of GG - although they bring back awesome memories of my time at Highbury....but there needs to be more of a balance. Sell Clichy....get a defensive left back in. Tell the back 4 and Song to stay put..... let the likes of Cesc, Van Persie, Arshavin, Chamack, Nasri, Walcott, Rosicky etc etc do whatever they like. We'd still be able to score goals!
Did I say it doesn't work? I believe my point was that it doesn't work as often as other tactics do. And when it doesn't work, you'd not only not be winning, you'd be enduring mind-numbing football.
My point very much is that there are no guarantees. A team can play very well, and lose due to luck, bad refereeing, exceptional goalkeeping.....a team can play very badly and fluke a 3-nil win...I've actually seen that many times as you have. The issue is, what is more likely to win you a game.
Going back to the days of GG would be regression of the highest order. In that time, we won fewer games, scored fewer goals, CONCEDED MORE GOALS, and played shit football.
For the record, I don't care how Arsenal play, as long as they win. The fact that we have been winning trophies playing under the free flowing football of Wenger's tutelage is a welcomed bonus. A bonus which will live long in the memories of fans of the beautiful game.
The footballing styles of play at Arsenal under Arsene Wenger and George Graham are completely opposite, however both managers won trophies for the club by playing to the squad's strengths at the time. Under Graham, we had more defensive minded players in the squad, so it made perfect sense to adopt a more defensive approach to our game, whereas under Wenger, we currently have the highest number of creative players I can recall seeing at our beloved club, since I've been a supporter since 1986, which is why we play a more offensive game.
The game has changed beyond all recognition since the GG days. No doubt if he did decide to manage in the PL next season...it simply wouldn't work. I'm not suggesting that we need to go back to the days of pumping the ball upfield + big man/little man tactics. Just stating that, in my humble opinion, we need to play more defensively.
Conceded more goals? Like in 90/91 season when we conceded 18....
We need a defensive coach...badly
We need to be more (and i hate this word) efficient
We have enough players who are capable of scoring goals...need to conentrate on defending more
We need to be a lot more physical
Oh sure, there was that one season where we only conceded 18. But since you have access to the data, you do the maths. On average we conceded more goals under George Graham than we have under Arsene Wenger. Fact.
Despite the famous Back 4, and the mind-numbing tactics, and prioritising the Milk Cup and FA Cup.
You can blame it on a weakness in a couple of positions...or you can blame it on tactics. Or even go so far as to suggest laziness. Barca are the only team in Europe who play better football than Arsenal...yet the ha
There has to be some middle ground.....
Knowing the facts is not a bad thing to do with your time. I guarantee you that. At the very least, it helps with keeping perspective. ;)
I don't know what your point is anymore. We've gone from "winning vs playing well" to Graham didnt concede more goals than Wenger to, 3rd most valuable club shouldn't concede too many goals.
But I'll summarise.....playing well is a means to winning. It's not an end in itself. To make a meaningful comparison, you should compare winning to losing. Then, everyone will say; "I prefer to win".
You can compare playing well to playing badly, and again I think everyone will say; "I prefer to play well".
we score more goals now, but let in far too many. our team is unbalanced and often ends up looking outnumbered at the back. unless all 11 players are playing well, we struggle.
the beauty of George Graham's Arsenal was we didnt have to always play well, cos we had an organised tactical system, that even if 9 out of the 11 players were having a shocker, if their positioning was ok, there was still a chance to win.
you dont lose if you dont concede goals.
if you are Bolton its winning,
if you are Arsenal you require both.
One thing i am certain of is when we win, whatever the circumstances i am glowing and all is well with the world.
If however we lose, i suffer absolute misery and playing well adds to the pain of a missed opportunity. Seeing our rivals lose can in some way ease the loss but then the pain returns when you realize you have not taken advantage by gaining ground of in Man utd's or Chelsea's case, their rare misfortune.
Individual match losses are not that bad and can even be overlooked if they are infrequent and at the end of the season the team wins a trophy or title to reward all their hard work. Winning something even neutralizes games lost against your rivals as it proves you were still able to win and that their victory over you did not prevent you from doing so.
If you have nothing to show for your seasons campaign, then all the teams hard fought battles, the last minute injury time victories and the player's broken legs are a waste of time, effort and energy.
I don't think it is realistic to win a Trophy every year and i know we have had baron times in the past but Arsenal have set their own high standards in recent history. Taking everything into consideration i say we should go no longer than 3 yrs at a time without winning something. 5 or 6 yrs without winning is a real concern. You begin to wonder, don't we know how to win anymore? have we forgotten how to achieve success?
Will it be 7, 8, 10 yrs or maybe more before we win another title?
I am not going to panic just yet or worry about Spurs overtaking us, but i would be lying if i did not say that i was a little bit concerned and certainly less confident than i have been about our squad finishing above all of their rivals to finally land a Trophy.
Does anyone else feel warm inside watching all those cocky mancs who thought the cup final would be a foregone conclusion?
Ronaldo's tears make me smile!
On the off chance, here is my one pence worth (credit crunch and all that)
Nicely written article Iron Man as always and you make many good points. I enjoyed George Graham's success as much as anyone but that was all I knew at the time. I suppose we need to understand what level we are talking about in regards to winning and failing.
Obviously I do not want Arsenal to play flicks and tricks and end up in the relegation zone but I certainly do not want to watch Rory Delap style throws and corners to result in a majority of our goals just to see us lift a trophy at the end of the season.
My memory of the 2005 FA Cup was a rather uncomfortable feeling of how we fluked the cup. I remember wondering how we played so badly instead of celebrating. That may seem weird but I hated that game. Watching the team I support play so negatively and get battered by Ronaldo and co for the whole game.
Luckily we have a manager who has managed to incorporate both, in a big way. Going the season unbeaten, playing the way we did. I personally feel that we have enough of a bright future to be able to do that again, perhaps not unbeaten but you know what I mean.
However, it would kill me to watch Arsenal play anti football for a whole season.
to the whole argument of winning vs playing well, it is being brought up because we haven't won anything the last five years but we have played very well and eye pleasing football on many occasions, so it is sort of considered we would rather play nicely than win, which isn't true, both things are what we want, we simply haven't been able to compete on an economic level with man u nor chelsea. wenger has done magic with the resources he has had available to him, now the shackles are off, he can buy proven talent instead of betting on some kid to shine. it doesn't mean we will suddenly win everything for 3 years in a row but certainly a return to prosperity and real competitivity, this year we win the league, you heard it here first.
May 12 2001 a 1-2 massacre of a game. We battered the pool for 70mins at 1-0 we were comfortably in control yet we lost that FA cup final coz Owen mugged us! We out played them with a master class of attacking football much in the style of Dutch Masters of old in the total football of the great Ajax teams of the past. They had no answer until with 20mins left under a barrage of pressure a break away goal against the run of play changed everything. Now which team deserved it?
Who played best? Who had the better chances?
I was there! As probably were many of you. I drove back home to Highbury from Cardif shaking my head all the way muttering F'in hell how? How? Its still baffling 10 years later.
I'm older than many of you (I think) at least in body and as I've said before you came to a succesful Arsenal under GG. I didn't! As I've said before I was an "Arse bandit" in the 60's and cherished the 1970 Fairs Cup Win our first in a decade. Then our first double.
Could we all return to watch GG style football? These days its an upgrade in the form of Mourinho style don't lose, stop the opposition from playing. I will always watch my team, but would I enjoy watching it? Hell No!
I as a die hard Gooner love watching the football that Arsene has us playing! Do I want a tighter defence? Do I want us tactically to defend better as a team? Is the pope a catholic?
I'm greedy I want us not only to win I want us to play well and win. We have done it before under Arsene for a whole season, so why not again. I'm with you OG playing well leads to wining!